Are we too stat obsessed??

[chadjaja]

Take for example Delonte West. A great young player for the Celtics and our PG of the future. Had some great games and got a lot excited about him and the future. But seriously after watching a heap of games lately this guy gets burnt on the D end constantly. Some will point to his blocks but most coaches will tell you most blocks from behind is a result of bad defence.

I've seen him get burnt and more than one or two steps off a lot of PG's and he can't fight his way around screens well yet.

YET if you ask Joe Bloe NBA man he will quote some of Delonte's stats and call you nuts.

What good is an assist or a basket if you can give one up just as easily??

A perfect example is Lebron and Paul Pierce. Both players getting it done stat wise but unless James hits winning baskets like today and Pierce leads us both are disapointing and get flammed.

We get it right some times.

And what about Kobe??

 

[lockymac]

Fair points there Chad, points which are even more relevant for non-US collectors
Many NBA fans in Australia have very limited access to viewing NBA games, and so their (and hey I include myself here) perceptions of players are significantly based on statistics
We have no means of assessing a players defensive prowess or the 'intangibles' that the bring to the game, other than perhaps on forums like this.
Take for example Troy Murphy, who plays for the Warriors who I support.
His stats are great. Averages a double double. Has some big 20 board games. But the diehard Warrior fans hate him because of his pathetic defence and apparently poor attitude.
And Tayshaun Price doesnt get much hobby love, but I bet most coaches would trade their small forward for him!

 

[kidd05]

Stats mean a lot chad, if you don't come up with numbers with your minutes, you sit... whether you're LeBron, or Travis Diener. But no one's perfect or plays up to his standards everyday. That's why during crucial plays, even superstars hit the bench to get the rebounders or the shot-changers in the floor. It's hard to speak though when all we see are scorers and passers on the Yahoo games. We don't see things like:

[8:34] Shane Battier double teams LeBron James and forces him to travel.

But yeah, if all you do is play defense, then that's what you're gonna be.. a role player.

 

[chadjaja]

Stats don't necessarily contribute to wins though Carlos. I don't think stats mean as much as fans and the media make them out to be. I would rarely see a coach go off at a drop of points production or rebounds if his team wins.

Winners play. Thats why we see the Bowens etc of the world on the court. SA couldn't care less about his stat line.

 

[jimboiitmac]

i do agree in many aspects.. like Chris Bosh for example.. aussies who support him see his 22 and 9 averages and say he's as good as Jermaine O'Neal. there isn't enough exposure, and most aussies here don't know enough to make those kind of calls. for me, i make lots of calls, but i watch all the ESPN games (nearly), download at least 3-4 torrent games each week and i'm tuned into nba action and sportscentre nearly everyday. another example is Jason Richardson. He is the REAL heart and soul of GS, people see he gets 23 and 6 rebounds, 1+ steal and shoots a good percentage, but he's still not in the upper echelon of SG's, when in actual fact, his ability on the court, his shooting, effort on defense and high rising acts are just as good as say a Kobe Bryant, he just doesn't get the same exposure or be put in the same team situation. Not saying he is a Kobe, but just an example.

one thing about delonte though, not quite about his stats. i'm dissapointed he didn't get selected for the sophomore team.

 

[reign40]

Winning, unfortunately is everything! Stat hunters are always found out if they make the playoffs or are swooped on as free agents.. Look at my ex chumps Jerome James & Antonio Daniels now!! Got contracts after quality seasons, mud!!

 

[TCAC]

Spot on Reign. It's all about winning and losing, and it's all about championships. The legends of the game make it happen, and that's what seperates great players from good players.

But to answer your question Chad, I think people are stats obsessed. It's easy to analysis ppg, rpg and so on, esp if you do a historical analysis of a player, that's all there is to go on. No one looks at the intangibles such as contributions to motivation, defensive screens, team harmony etc etc. Can you imagine that on the back of a card though? Wouldn't sell! It's just not 'sexy' to talk about those things either.

Bottomline: It's about winning. If you look at a 72-10 record, no one remembers (without looking it up) how many game winning blocks there were, or the FG% of the team, or the T/Os to assists ratio, and so on.

Good post! One of those topics that could go on & on.

 

[WoobieZarz]

I like to know the stats of my boy from the games he plays. I also like to see HOW he plays. I mean, you're totally right, what good is 10 ppg if you give up 20 on your opposing PG... (or other players/positions).

I think the last Mavs/Spurs game I saw (Spurs won) Devin got the ball, and was close to crunch time (about 3 mins to go) and he just fucked up and travelled... Next play, he got a 3 point play.

What do you notice more, the fact he turned it over and allowed another 2 points, or that he scored 3 points but on 2 posessions...

 

[HBM]

another example is Jason Richardson. He is the REAL heart and soul of GS, people see he gets 23 and 6 rebounds, 1+ steal and shoots a good percentage, but he's still not in the upper echelon of SG's, when in actual fact, his ability on the court, his shooting, effort on defense and high rising acts are just as good as say a Kobe Bryant, he just doesn't get the same exposure or be put in the same team situation. Not saying he is a Kobe, but just an example.

I'd like to believe you with Richardson, but the fact is that he has ability above the rim, and from the arc... but his mid range game is really lacking. He plays in fits and starts. I am a GSW fan and watch every game I can get my hands on in which they participate, but I have yet to see him conduct himself in a way that demonstrates he deserves to be in the upper echelon of 2-men. He hasn't been able to carry the team at any stage and struggles against double teams.

His stats are still very good. Hell, there'd be a lot of people in the league that would take stats like he gets, but I don't believe it is an exposure, or lack thereof, issue with JRich. He's good, I don't deny it, and I love watching him play (especially if it's in a W) but he's not that good.

Cheers

 

[chadjaja]

I love Pierces stats but hate watching him. Whats that say???

He makes shots that he shouldnt take and missed shots he shouldn't miss....?

 

[kidd05]

Serious question Chad.. if you were the Celtics' GM, who would you take?

Kobe Bryant (or AI if you're gonna be biased with KB)? Or Zach Randolph, Reuben Patterson, and Ha-Seung Jin.

Defense can be developed.. stats need serious skill and natural talents ala LeBron, Steve Nash, and Ray Allen.

(Nash can't rebound a thing. Kidd owns him in rebounding. )

 

[white_chocolate_55]

everyone loves stats.. thats what makes us look out for a guy.. always watching out for his ever growing stats, but winning is the main thing i guess..

 

[chadjaja]

Defense is not a talent like Stats??

I can tell you in my experiance that scoring is the easiest part of the game. Completely overated. Anyone can learn to score and pass fairl well as in protecting the ball. Not to the point of Nash and kidd etc but at leat decent. I've seen heaps of guys over the years that think they are schoolyard legends but fail in a real games due to the fact that they can't read play and know how to handle situations that arise. They struggle with sets, picks and screens and cost more points than they are worth. Those guys are a dime a dozen. But D comes from within and most will never get it. You can teach Defensive sets and drum them into teams but rarely improve a player's Defence to the point of it rivalring any improvement in his jumpshot for example. The ring is 10 ft off the ground and alway in the same spot. There is always a backboard and even a box to aim at. Players on the other hand are totally unpredictable. Well some are.

Go spend anytime in a serious program and the guys that have the smarts and can hold their own on the defensive end go thru. You can spot the good player without looking at thier stats. Their value is unmeasurable.

D needs to be taught at an early age. D wins championships.

The celts can score but the other team gets the stops late in the game and we don't. The reason we lose so many close games all the time. Its not an offensive or stat problem.

I'd take none of the above.

Kobe is well Kobe
AI will never win it for you
Zach is disturbed
Any player from Portland in fact is damaged goods.

If I had my way we would have Artest if he wasn't a nutcase. A great example of a player that plays both ends well.

And I haven't even starte on boxing out, setting screens and picks and running lanes. The real game is so much more.

These superstars don't always get open on thier own you know

 

[kidd05]

LOL. Sorry the Blazers players were the first ones to come to my mind as they are a team with no superstar or major scorer but can still win games.

Anyways.. the person you're looking for has long retired Chad.

Incredible offense/defense = Air Jordan and HIS Chicago Bulls. I think that's what made MJ the best player ever. He KNOWS the game.

(In my era anyways.. I know nothing about the pre-Jordan reign and that's the Chad Age.) although I know for a fact that Larry Bird is way up there too.

I can see now the point you are trying to make, and I agree 100%. Anyone is crap if they don't know how to play... whatever their skills are.

 

[kidd05]

OK another question.. who would you rather have on your team?

LeBron James? Or Jason Kidd?

 

[chadjaja]

Well Kid is past his prime and Lebron is one of the most unselfish stars we have seen in a long time. No brainer. Both make their teams that much better though.

 

[WoobieZarz]

I dont think I can even agree that MJ is the greatest of all time... I really dont....

Can someone tell me something about MJ, that no other player has done? Not including consecutive stats/records.

Sure, he scored heaps. Won championships, won MVPs. Dont recall him being Defensive Player tho... (please correct me here, I'm too lazy to look, but I can't recall it).

 

[kidd05]

Jordan was always in the NBA All defensive team. If he got defensive player of the year and MVP on the same year it would be crazy.

But yeah Scotty that will always be debatable. You can't really say BEST EVER anymore nowadays coz athletes keep developing anyways. You can't compare eras. That goes for any sport IMO.

 

[chadjaja]

My point is now his career is over Jordan is judged by his feats and plays. How many times do we quote stats from seasons???

It seems stats are only important when they are history making or in the moment we are in now.

 

[reign40]

Can't agree with the whole Jordan not the best player of all time talk..A repeat 3peat is very hard, particularly in the 90's when there was so much competition and so many superstars. Fancy denying championships to: magic, drexler, Barkley, Kemp, Payton, Malone and Stockton 6/6 tries in the finals.. No player will ever be as as good as MJ.....LBJ is not just a player however, he could be a god!!