rishgoon
OzCardTrader
I'm not sure what you mean there mate. You talking about shill bidding?
Futera Unique 2014
- Thread starter Nicolasharris1
- Start date
I'm not sure what you mean there mate. You talking about shill bidding?
Nicolasharris1
OzCardTrader
Shills.
A shill is a basically a plant who supports or opposes something.
If a Shill opposes, their objective is to reduce a competing position through negative subject matter, repeated continuously and directly at the competitor.
In order to maintain the longevity of action the shill will try to keep subject matter away from full analysis and society processes. For example if the shill claims a competitor has committed a crime, he would also say the authorities are not interested.
A shill often has activity occurring across other subjects and social media platforms.
Shills also recruit sympathisers who are active social media participants and who have a position of influence in the targeted community.
The professional shill agenda is of no interest in the healthy outcome of you or I, seen it all before, don't fall for it.
If you think fraud is taking place and you care for other collectors go to the relevant govt law enforcement office, don't believe others saying this is a waste of time, fraud is a seriously taken issue.
A shill is a basically a plant who supports or opposes something.
If a Shill opposes, their objective is to reduce a competing position through negative subject matter, repeated continuously and directly at the competitor.
In order to maintain the longevity of action the shill will try to keep subject matter away from full analysis and society processes. For example if the shill claims a competitor has committed a crime, he would also say the authorities are not interested.
A shill often has activity occurring across other subjects and social media platforms.
Shills also recruit sympathisers who are active social media participants and who have a position of influence in the targeted community.
The professional shill agenda is of no interest in the healthy outcome of you or I, seen it all before, don't fall for it.
If you think fraud is taking place and you care for other collectors go to the relevant govt law enforcement office, don't believe others saying this is a waste of time, fraud is a seriously taken issue.
the_all*cards
OzCardTrader
I have seen these arguments played out hundreds of times in the last couple of years in countless forums. I don't post very much so this is the first time I am addressing them. I have been collecting soccer cards and autographs for years and have done several deals with a lot of you guys in the past. I collect everything - I collect IP autographs, TTM autographs, Topps, Upper Deck, Futera and just recently, Panini. There are positives and negatives to all the companies - not mentioning any names specifically (this is not what my post is intended to achieve), what I find frustrating is that there are people with their blinkers on who are not objective at all when arguing for or against Futera's products.
Let's be honest - there's no doubt that Futera brings about the most debate and conjecture when it comes to soccer cards because they do things "differently" from the usual suspects in the trading card industry, being Topps, Panini and Upper Deck. There are countless positives and negatives to all of them. Each to their own really - as soccer collectors, we are lucky that we have a choice as to what product we choose to buy and support.
This is my take on Futera and the rest of the companies. I have included Topps, Panini and Upper Deck altogether as they operate in a similar way.
Topps/Upper Deck/Panini
Positives -
Very little doubt as to the authenticity of the autographs because players are paid to sign autographs at private signing sessions, whether at their home or at a hotel, stadium etc. Given their size and obviously a business decision, they have the ability to utilise their distribution networks and contacts to meet players and pay them. The players they have managed to obtain authentic autographs of (see the autograph list in the Prizm series) must be applauded and gives collectors without the deep pockets the ability to obtain them, compared to earlier Calcio Serie A autographs, BBVA Liga Panini autographs or 2006 and 2010 World Cup autographs which are impossible to find!
At times, players will return items via mail and all players are required to sign declarations that they have personally signed the cards. While this does not mean they are 100% authentic (there has been an instance where a player admitted their manager signed the stickers for them), it's just about the best you can do.
Another huge positive is that because these signings are private signings, players can take their time with their autographs making them more complete, consistent, legible and acceptable to collectors as being "authentic".
Negatives -
Especially with soccer trading cards, with the exception of a few series', most autographs are sticker autographs. Exceptions include some of the Upper Deck Manchester United releases, Topps Allen & Ginter Van Persie autograph, Topps Pele autograph and earlier Match Attax autographs in the UK and Germany. I am not a fan of sticker autographs at all, however I acknowledge that they are a "given" in the trading card industry as it makes it far easier logistically for players to sign and it means companies can take advantage of a single signing and release autographs in multiple products over multiple years. Aside from the lack of a "personal" feel compared to an on-card autograph, this is the aspect I hate the most and I think that a lot of collectors will soon be feeling this way.
Having seen the pictures Panini released of the players signing stickers in the World Cup Prizm series I have no doubt that these stickers are going to be used in multiple products over the long period of time. It looks like some players have signed over 2000 stickers. While this may mean collectors will have autographed cards in future releases, there is a somewhat hollow feeling knowing that it will be the same stickers being used - for me, there is a certain disconnect between for example, a future 2016 Champions League series with an autograph of Ronaldo when I know it's the same sticker which he signed in 2014 being used.
In the long run, I believe that the prices of these autographs will probably decline too with more mainstream soccer card released - simple economics. Previously, releases were few and far between and autographs were impossible to find and retained their value very well. Unfortunately for soccer collectors, the market isn't as big as the US sports when it comes to trading cards.
I will address the memorabilia cards briefly. In recent years with the major US sports, game-worn memorabilia cards have been few and far between and taken over by "event-worn" memorabilia cards. For example, there are memorabilia cards released in the Premier Gold series which are labelled "event-worn" memorabilia cards. As is not uncommon, it turns out that Topps asked the players to put on these replica jerseys and give them back for them to be included in the series as "event-worn". For me, if they are not match-worn, they don't have much value at all as a memorabilia card.
Edit - another negative I forgot to include is that the sticker autographs can be removed and re-stuck on different products, creating more counterfeit autographs. This is becoming more common in the Topps Match Attax series where Topps have moved away from the on-cards autographs with holograms and replaced them with stickers which have been used in multiple series' (my point above). For example, there is little stopping someone with the ability to remove a Frank Lampard sticker from the Premier Gold series which sells for $50, sticking it on a 2014 Legends series and trying to pass it off to another collector as being worth $500+ and limited to 10 when the same stickers are being used!
Let's be honest - there's no doubt that Futera brings about the most debate and conjecture when it comes to soccer cards because they do things "differently" from the usual suspects in the trading card industry, being Topps, Panini and Upper Deck. There are countless positives and negatives to all of them. Each to their own really - as soccer collectors, we are lucky that we have a choice as to what product we choose to buy and support.
This is my take on Futera and the rest of the companies. I have included Topps, Panini and Upper Deck altogether as they operate in a similar way.
Topps/Upper Deck/Panini
Positives -
Very little doubt as to the authenticity of the autographs because players are paid to sign autographs at private signing sessions, whether at their home or at a hotel, stadium etc. Given their size and obviously a business decision, they have the ability to utilise their distribution networks and contacts to meet players and pay them. The players they have managed to obtain authentic autographs of (see the autograph list in the Prizm series) must be applauded and gives collectors without the deep pockets the ability to obtain them, compared to earlier Calcio Serie A autographs, BBVA Liga Panini autographs or 2006 and 2010 World Cup autographs which are impossible to find!
At times, players will return items via mail and all players are required to sign declarations that they have personally signed the cards. While this does not mean they are 100% authentic (there has been an instance where a player admitted their manager signed the stickers for them), it's just about the best you can do.
Another huge positive is that because these signings are private signings, players can take their time with their autographs making them more complete, consistent, legible and acceptable to collectors as being "authentic".
Negatives -
Especially with soccer trading cards, with the exception of a few series', most autographs are sticker autographs. Exceptions include some of the Upper Deck Manchester United releases, Topps Allen & Ginter Van Persie autograph, Topps Pele autograph and earlier Match Attax autographs in the UK and Germany. I am not a fan of sticker autographs at all, however I acknowledge that they are a "given" in the trading card industry as it makes it far easier logistically for players to sign and it means companies can take advantage of a single signing and release autographs in multiple products over multiple years. Aside from the lack of a "personal" feel compared to an on-card autograph, this is the aspect I hate the most and I think that a lot of collectors will soon be feeling this way.
Having seen the pictures Panini released of the players signing stickers in the World Cup Prizm series I have no doubt that these stickers are going to be used in multiple products over the long period of time. It looks like some players have signed over 2000 stickers. While this may mean collectors will have autographed cards in future releases, there is a somewhat hollow feeling knowing that it will be the same stickers being used - for me, there is a certain disconnect between for example, a future 2016 Champions League series with an autograph of Ronaldo when I know it's the same sticker which he signed in 2014 being used.
In the long run, I believe that the prices of these autographs will probably decline too with more mainstream soccer card released - simple economics. Previously, releases were few and far between and autographs were impossible to find and retained their value very well. Unfortunately for soccer collectors, the market isn't as big as the US sports when it comes to trading cards.
I will address the memorabilia cards briefly. In recent years with the major US sports, game-worn memorabilia cards have been few and far between and taken over by "event-worn" memorabilia cards. For example, there are memorabilia cards released in the Premier Gold series which are labelled "event-worn" memorabilia cards. As is not uncommon, it turns out that Topps asked the players to put on these replica jerseys and give them back for them to be included in the series as "event-worn". For me, if they are not match-worn, they don't have much value at all as a memorabilia card.
Edit - another negative I forgot to include is that the sticker autographs can be removed and re-stuck on different products, creating more counterfeit autographs. This is becoming more common in the Topps Match Attax series where Topps have moved away from the on-cards autographs with holograms and replaced them with stickers which have been used in multiple series' (my point above). For example, there is little stopping someone with the ability to remove a Frank Lampard sticker from the Premier Gold series which sells for $50, sticking it on a 2014 Legends series and trying to pass it off to another collector as being worth $500+ and limited to 10 when the same stickers are being used!
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Agree with a lot of your points, taking sticker autos off cards can damage the sticker itself and most have security features that if you peel it off it leaves part of the sticker on the card.
Overall a very good summary though...well written!
the_all*cards
OzCardTrader
Futera
Definitely more doubt/debate over the authenticity of their autographs given signings do not happen in private and players are not paid for signings. Without a doubt, this is the biggest negative compared to Topps, Panini and Upper Deck who have the private signing sessions, however this is the way Futera operates.
As such, the autographs appear rushed, inconsistent, (at times) illegible and not consistent with what collectors believe to be an "authentic" autograph of the player. It's just the nature of how they operate - if you ask a player to sign 60 of the same card after training while they are sitting in a car and wanting to get home, there's no doubt you will get autographs which are inconsistent and some which are probably just a squiggle! However, this does not mean the autograph is "not authentic". I find there are a lot of naive people who just claim "just because it doesnt look like his full autograph it's a fake".
Personally, having collected autographs for a long time and having obtained autographs in person from multiple sources, the consistency of the autographs from the same players differ greatly (I mean greatly!), depending on the situation. While there have been players who have have specifically mentioned on Twitter when shown a picture of their apparent Futera "autograph card" that it was not their autograph, it could very well be. I am not saying they are lying, but these are high profile athletes who probably sign hundreds if not thousands of items in a given week where they are rushed and probably not even looking at what they sign.
For example, Lleyton Hewitt is a good example of someone whose autograph differs greatly depending on when you get it. If you get him at a private event his autograph is amazing and full and actually takes a long time to do. If you get him after hitting on a practice court at the Australian Open in 45 degree heat with 200 people asking for his autograph, you will get a scribble. It is still his "authentic autograph" but probably not what collectors would want when it comes to a trading card autograph. In some regards, this is what I compare some Futera autographs to.
While I think Futera's practices when it comes to collecting autographs have improved recently (this 2014 series will be another improvement) where details are provided as to when and where a signing takes place, the same issues remain when compared with Topps, Panini and Upper Deck when it comes to how "authentic" their autographs look. However, I do think they have been listening to collectors and trying to respond to what we want.
I do feel that at times Futera are given a hard time because their autographs are obtained in what we see as trading card collectors as unconventional means. I don't think they are forging autographs of players and releasing them as authentic - it would make little sense for them to do so from a business longevity perspective and for their reputation. All their released always sell out and there is a strong demand for them.
That being said, I am obviously more convinced of an Upper Deck/Topps/Panini autograph being "Authentic" compared to a Futera autograph, but I am not one who will jump up and down and claim they are fake because they look a bit off. I acknowledge some of them don't even resemble anything close to what a full autograph would look like, but if you don't like the look of it, don't buy it. It's a totally different matter declaring that the company sells "fakes" knowingly.
The Futera series is seen by a lot of collectors as the premier series for soccer cards and the 1/1 Gold Plate autographs highly sought after and fetching some very high prices. A lot of collectors, especially high-end collectors in Asia prefer these very limited and rare cards. I know a lot of collectors who only collect the 1/1 cards because they feel like the mainstream series' are too mass produced and will not retain their value.
_____
My 2 cents. These are my opinions - feel free to disagree and agree. This has taken a lot longer to type up so I am sure I have missed some things out.
Each to their own really. We have a choice in terms of what we choose to buy and who we choose to support and who we don't. I support all of them and am happy that we have the option of multiple companies. Look at the poor AFL...
Definitely more doubt/debate over the authenticity of their autographs given signings do not happen in private and players are not paid for signings. Without a doubt, this is the biggest negative compared to Topps, Panini and Upper Deck who have the private signing sessions, however this is the way Futera operates.
As such, the autographs appear rushed, inconsistent, (at times) illegible and not consistent with what collectors believe to be an "authentic" autograph of the player. It's just the nature of how they operate - if you ask a player to sign 60 of the same card after training while they are sitting in a car and wanting to get home, there's no doubt you will get autographs which are inconsistent and some which are probably just a squiggle! However, this does not mean the autograph is "not authentic". I find there are a lot of naive people who just claim "just because it doesnt look like his full autograph it's a fake".
Personally, having collected autographs for a long time and having obtained autographs in person from multiple sources, the consistency of the autographs from the same players differ greatly (I mean greatly!), depending on the situation. While there have been players who have have specifically mentioned on Twitter when shown a picture of their apparent Futera "autograph card" that it was not their autograph, it could very well be. I am not saying they are lying, but these are high profile athletes who probably sign hundreds if not thousands of items in a given week where they are rushed and probably not even looking at what they sign.
For example, Lleyton Hewitt is a good example of someone whose autograph differs greatly depending on when you get it. If you get him at a private event his autograph is amazing and full and actually takes a long time to do. If you get him after hitting on a practice court at the Australian Open in 45 degree heat with 200 people asking for his autograph, you will get a scribble. It is still his "authentic autograph" but probably not what collectors would want when it comes to a trading card autograph. In some regards, this is what I compare some Futera autographs to.
While I think Futera's practices when it comes to collecting autographs have improved recently (this 2014 series will be another improvement) where details are provided as to when and where a signing takes place, the same issues remain when compared with Topps, Panini and Upper Deck when it comes to how "authentic" their autographs look. However, I do think they have been listening to collectors and trying to respond to what we want.
I do feel that at times Futera are given a hard time because their autographs are obtained in what we see as trading card collectors as unconventional means. I don't think they are forging autographs of players and releasing them as authentic - it would make little sense for them to do so from a business longevity perspective and for their reputation. All their released always sell out and there is a strong demand for them.
That being said, I am obviously more convinced of an Upper Deck/Topps/Panini autograph being "Authentic" compared to a Futera autograph, but I am not one who will jump up and down and claim they are fake because they look a bit off. I acknowledge some of them don't even resemble anything close to what a full autograph would look like, but if you don't like the look of it, don't buy it. It's a totally different matter declaring that the company sells "fakes" knowingly.
The Futera series is seen by a lot of collectors as the premier series for soccer cards and the 1/1 Gold Plate autographs highly sought after and fetching some very high prices. A lot of collectors, especially high-end collectors in Asia prefer these very limited and rare cards. I know a lot of collectors who only collect the 1/1 cards because they feel like the mainstream series' are too mass produced and will not retain their value.
_____
My 2 cents. These are my opinions - feel free to disagree and agree. This has taken a lot longer to type up so I am sure I have missed some things out.
Each to their own really. We have a choice in terms of what we choose to buy and who we choose to support and who we don't. I support all of them and am happy that we have the option of multiple companies. Look at the poor AFL...
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rishgoon
OzCardTrader
Well said and well written @the_all*cards.
the_all*cards
OzCardTrader
Sadly, it's been done before and there is a way to do it without damaging the sticker. I've heard it is difficult and time consuming but can be done. Autographs can also be removed from a sticker quite easily. With NBA, MLB and NFL cards, the risk/reward isn't enough for this to be done and the autograph card designs are different to base cards anyway so doing it wouldn't achieve anything.
However, for soccer cards, the risk/reward is there, it has been done and is being done more and more. Like I said, this is most common in the Match Attax series where autographed cards are effectively a common card with an autograph sticker on it and can be hard to tell for the not so savvy collector.
Nicolasharris1
OzCardTrader
Brilliantly written by the _all*cards. At the end of the day we all love the hobby ...
Perhaps this can put an end to people messaging on threads about cards that they are not interested in collecting.
Perhaps this can put an end to people messaging on threads about cards that they are not interested in collecting.
Lazlow
OzCardTrader
As an Alistair Overeem collector, I can relate
All his early stuff looks like this
His UFC-era Topps stuff is like this
and lately his IP stuff has looked like this
and this
Of all the above the Topps ones are the most dubious, and given the 5 month email battle I've been in with Topps over two on card redemptions they told me were on their way in January, that have yet to show up and are still listed as "Pending" on my account, I wouldn't be surprised if they're not genuine.
As for Futera, I just wish they'd do another F1 set... but try to get the right drivers on the cards this time
Nicolasharris1
OzCardTrader
As an Alistair Overeem collector, I can relate
All his early stuff looks like this
His UFC-era Topps stuff is like this
and lately his IP stuff has looked like this
and this
Of all the above the Topps ones are the most dubious, and given the 5 month email battle I've been in with Topps over two on card redemptions they told me were on their way in January, that have yet to show up and are still listed as "Pending" on my account, I wouldn't be surprised if they're not genuine.
As for Futera, I just wish they'd do another F1 set... but try to get the right drivers on the cards this time
I have seen a rugby player in a Futera football collection, same names, might have been John Barnes and then there was a Classic of mixing up andy cole and Dwight Yorke on an old MU set.
I think a Futera F1 set every 2/3 years would be nice.
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Arius
OzCardTrader
Great video, knowing all the details about your card is the best idea for the hobby that I've seen in a long time.
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Nicolasharris1
OzCardTrader
Anyone know the retailer(s) distributors in Australia for this new release? maybe quicker than mail order direct from Futera.
Nicolasharris1
OzCardTrader
Any one heard of release date, thought it was to be announced end of the week (yesterday) ?
