Bulls the Era 84 onwards

[basketoz74]

Well while we have those that clearly nut hug, jockey swing and have some strange type of male adoration with and for questionably basketball's greatest player....i thought a discussion on whom was responsible for the success of the Chicago Bulls organization during the 80's and 90's was worthwhile.


Now of course our Ozcard's Patron of All Things MJ, will stand by the unconditional statement that all success and achievements of the Bulls organization and his fellow players was attainable only through the work, sacrifice, passion and commitment of one individual.

Now i on this occasion shall dare to step outside my most humblest of assigned roles and titles of being a mere newbie, and ask the question on was the success of the Bulls solely attributable to the Michael Jordan.

Did the trianlge implemented by Jackson and taught by Tex Winter make a difference to the success of the Bulls, did the defensive style of John Bach have an impact on the ability of the Bulls to benefit from having a some solid defensive players on the roster....


Did Jerry Krause build a roster which was to ensure that all the players acquired and had solid and definable roles within the structure.


Did Jerry Reinsdorf ensure that the front office could or could not spend freely to acquire the type of players that would work well within the triangle and within Jordan's need and demand for the ball...

Now my esteemed, long serving counterpart, shall state in no uncertain terms, without Jordan no success would have occured, would success have been achieved if Clyde Drexler was present on that roster and not Jordan, or Bird....

I look forward to the discussion on this....

 

[Matt26]

As long as things dont get personal it should be a great debate! One that ill certainly be interested in reading!

 

[mattyj]

Jerry Krause built a great roster, Jordan was a great player no doubt, but he couldnt have won without Pippen, Grant, and to a lesser extent guys like Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Craig Hodges, Bill Cartwright, even Big Luc

 

[dickyKnee]

MJ simply wouldn't have won any rings without the solid supporting cast that the bulls front office put around him (I really think that Brons supporting cast is better the MJs was). But what i think MJ might have done better than any other player in the modern era was make each of his team mates better than they would have been anywhere else. Now of course Phil had a huge say in that. Maybe it was just the MJ was so good and so competitiveness it just rubbed off and he motivated his teammates through his actions.

 

[nandalinnaung]

What makes you think that??? I definitely think MJ had better teammates.. compared to any of his season in any team including Wizards..

LeBron James played with other all-stars only when there's an all-star game or team USA .. MJ played with one or two all-stars at most of his prime.. every single game.. I have my theory about winning a championship, a championship team should have about 2 all-stars and one star who would do blue collar jobs and 2 players who can shoot well and defend well for a starting lineup.

like Dallas, Detroit, Phoenix, Boston and San Antonio...

anyway Back to the topic.

Some people never cared Pippen's steals against pistons, Horace Grant's block on Kevin Johnson, or John Paxson's and Toni Kukoc three pointers on finals series, or Dennis Rodman's consistent rebounds..

success is a selection of attributes and many people forgot about all those attributes.. In this case.. players, manager, coach, asst coaches, physio, etc etc.... Some people watch one player game, whereas some watch 10 players game on the court.. that's why the perception of everyone is valid but different.

Basketball is an organizational sports and I think crediting just one guy isn't really an answer.. so, the success of Bulls is greatly done by 50+ staff/players hardwork.... of course, without MJ, they cannot win a championship.. just like any other finals MVPs...

and didn't mean to stir, LOL,I think it's also because Magic/Bird are getting old too..

Magic/Bird are my inspirations to Basketball ...But never been a fan of Lakers or Celts...For me, the transition of a history to a team I support is what I like about NBA..

(I really think that Brons supporting cast is better the MJs was).

 

[mattyj]

MJ simply wouldn't have won any rings without the solid supporting cast that the bulls front office put around him (I really think that Brons supporting cast is better the MJs was). But what i think MJ might have done better than any other player in the modern era was make each of his team mates better than they would have been anywhere else. Now of course Phil had a huge say in that. Maybe it was just the MJ was so good and so competitiveness it just rubbed off and he motivated his teammates through his actions.

WHAT??!


LeBron James >> SCottie Pippen
Larry Hughes <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Michael Jordan
Drew Gooden << Horace Grant
Boobie Gibson < BJ Armstrong
Big Z = Bill Cartwright

 

[ljandkg]

Well while we have those that clearly nut hug, jockey swing and have some strange type of male adoration with and for questionably basketball's greatest player....i thought a discussion on whom was responsible for the success of the Chicago Bulls organization during the 80's and 90's was worthwhile.


Now of course our Ozcard's Patron of All Things MJ, will stand by the unconditional statement that all success and achievements of the Bulls organization and his fellow players was attainable only through the work, sacrifice, passion and commitment of one individual.

Now i on this occasion shall dare to step outside my most humblest of assigned roles and titles of being a mere newbie, and ask the question on was the success of the Bulls solely attributable to the Michael Jordan.

Did the trianlge implemented by Jackson and taught by Tex Winter make a difference to the success of the Bulls, did the defensive style of John Bach have an impact on the ability of the Bulls to benefit from having a some solid defensive players on the roster....


Did Jerry Krause build a roster which was to ensure that all the players acquired and had solid and definable roles within the structure.


Did Jerry Reinsdorf ensure that the front office could or could not spend freely to acquire the type of players that would work well within the triangle and within Jordan's need and demand for the ball...

Now my esteemed, long serving counterpart, shall state in no uncertain terms, without Jordan no success would have occured, would success have been achieved if Clyde Drexler was present on that roster and not Jordan, or Bird....

I look forward to the discussion on this....

That's quality stuff!!!!

 

[dickyKnee]

I am just on my way out the door, so i cant fully defend myself But i will, probably tomorrow morning. And i am telling you that if you took MJ from the Bulls and Bron from the Cavs the Cavs would win a game of 4 on 4 (well it would be pretty close ).

 

[WoobieZarz]

Done some research, don't often do it much.

Just when someone mentioned the Cavs having a better support cast for Bron than Bulls did for MJ...

Now I don't know TOO much about most of these guys, so I'm only judging on who I thought was "decent" (when comparing to the Cavs).

1991 Championship Team:
Jordan, Pippen, Cartwright, Paxon & Grant
(with BJ, Perdue, S.Williams, Herold, Hodges, Levingston & Hopson)

1992 Championship Team:
Jordan, Pippen, Cartwright, Paxon & Grant
(with BJ, King, Perdue, S.Williams, Hodges, Levingston, Hanson & Nevitt)

1993 Championship Team:
Jordan, Pippen, Cartwright, Paxon & Grant
(with BJ, King, Perdue, S.Williams, Tucker, McCray, Blanton, Walker, C.Williams & English)

Now judging from the above teams, I would have picked the 1993 team as the pick out of these, so we have (only picked who I considered "decent" here)
Pippen, Paxon, Grant, BJ, King, Perdue, S.Williams, & Jo Jo English

Compare that to Lebron's Cavs, and I think the Cavs are 0-1.

Lets move on to the next 3-peat...

1996 Championship Team:
Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Longley, Kerr, Harper, Wennington, Haley, Buechler, Simpkins, Edwards, Caffey, Brown, Salley

1997 Championship Team:
Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Longley, Kerr, Harper, B.Williams, Buechler, Caffey, Brown & Parish

1998 Championship Team:
Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Longley, Kerr, Harper, Buechler, Caffey, Brown, Burrell, Simpkins, LaRue, Wennington, Kleine & Booth
(it seems they had a few late jumpers to get that illustrious title!)

Anyways, taking a pick from these 3 teams, I'd have taken the 1996. But only just over the 1997 team.
So that leaves us with (again, only those I considered "decent")
Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Longley, Kerr, Harper, Buechler, Caffey & Salley

I think the Cavs are 0-2 on this one.

Please feel free to educate me on what I missed, as I'm pretty certain I would have.

Now also, we have to remember, that 10 years ago, NBA was played a HELL of a lot different than it is today. Players have improved, and defence has improved.

My 200c.

 

[basketoz74]

Interestingly enough the addition of defensive minded John Bach led to in his second season a 10 ppg better defensive effort.

Defensive Stats
1984-85 109.6 ppg (#11) 48.8 fg% (Kevin Loughery)
1985-86 113.1 ppg (#17) 50.4 fg% (Stan Albeck)
1986-87 103.9 ppg (#2) 48.3 fg% (Phil Jackson/John Bach)
1987-88 101.6 ppg (#1) 47.0 fg% (Phil Jackson/John Bach)
1988-89 105.0 ppg (#5) 47.4 fg% (Phil Jackson/John Bach)
1989-90 106.2 ppg (#12) 49.3 fg% (Phil Jackson/John Bach)
1990-91 101.0 ppg (#4) 47.5 fg% (Phil Jackson/John Bach)
1991-92 99.5 ppg (#3) 46.0 fg% (Phil Jackson/John Bach)
1992-93 98.9 ppg (#2) 47.4 fg% (Phil Jackson/John Bach)
1993-94 94.9 ppg (#3) 46.3 fg% (Phil Jackson/John Bach)


Bach then moved to Charlotte and lifted the Hornets defensive approach

1993-94 106.7 ppg (#24) 47.1 fg% (without Bach)
1994-95 97.3 ppg (#6) 45.4 fg% (with Bach)
1995-96 103.4 ppg (#24) 48.9 fg% (with Bach)

Then onto Detroit

1996-97 88.9 ppg (#2) 44.4 fg% (with Bach)
1997-98 92.9 ppg (#9) 44.5 fg% (with Bach)

Washington

2000-01 99.9 ppg (#28) 47.0 fg% (without Bach)
2001-02 94.1 ppg (#11) 45.2 fg% (with Bach)
2002-03 92.5 ppg (#10) 44.2 fg% (with Bach)

Back to Chicago

2002-03 100.1 ppg (#26) 43.9 fg% (without Bach)
2003-04 96.0 ppg (#18) 43.6 fg% (with Bach)


Now i am not stating that Bach is solely or even primarily responsible for the success of the Bulls or any teams he has been associated with, but along with the players, there are other contributors, these are earlier stated coaches, scouts, front office and the list goes on....one can clearly see the difference he made to the team after coming aboard, and that deserves mention and recognition as much as glorifying any particular players.

 

[basketoz74]

Is truly hard to fathom how the likes of Jack Haley and Joe Kliene achieved success in the NBA...token white guy? practice player? towel waiver?

Amazing how when you consider the amount of guys who may have potentially been running around in the CBA or USBL at that time and never had a shot at the big time.

 

[jordan23]

Being huge bulls fan my whole life I think Clyde wouldn't have won a title with the Bulls supporting cast. Clyde is a hall of famer but MJ is a part of the elite. My opinion is that MJ was the greatest to ever play simply because he made his teamates better players Yeah I know he has all of the individual awards, but he made a team of nobodys into the greatest Dynasty since Bill Russells Celtics.

 

[basketoz74]

Being huge bulls fan my whole life I think Clyde wouldn't have won a title with the Bulls supporting cast. Clyde is a hall of famer but MJ is a part of the elite. My opinion is that MJ was the greatest to ever play simply because he made his teamates better players Yeah I know he has all of the individual awards, but he made a team of nobodys into the greatest Dynasty since Bill Russells Celtics.

A week ago you were referring to Pippen as a worthy inclusion of being in the Top 50 players of all-time....

So do i take it you thus mean, that he made that particular nobody....a somebody??

 

[nandalinnaung]

Last week, you told me why I made a judgment about Bill Russell and Was I even born to make a comment.. Yet, you now make a comment about Bill Russell..


No, I wasn't born while Bill Russell played... I am not sure what do you mean by making teammates better while talking about MJ.. nobody got paid in Bulls 1/7 of MJ's salary in their career with Bulls.. and except Steve Kerr, I don't see anyone else is still in NBA operations... Statswise, with MJ presence, only Pippen would average what John Salmons is averaging this season.. then rest of players' stats will be down below.. Pippen led many categories and earned NBA-Third team to First team 93-94 season.. Horace Grant became all-star and included in all-defensive team..

For example, Magic Johnson made his teammates better.. they get paid reasonably, and most of Magic Johnson teammates are still in NBA business.. Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis, Kareem, James Worthy. etc.. in terms of money and fame of teammates to get better.. I think Magic Johnson has done better than anyone else in NBA... he is famous of sharing the spotlight with teammates.. unselfish, distributed, court visionary... you can't see much of his shots in his career highlights, rather you would see how he passed and made everyone involved in showtime era.. except for his play-off skyhook shot when he played every position. for me, not only Bulls, it applies to every championship organization...

San Antonio drafted, Admiral, Duncan, Tony Longoria, Manu G.. by different coaches and managers.. they drafted it right.. and Spurs won titles by their carefully selected draft picks..

On the other hand, Heat, Pistons, Lakers they won by trading significant players as well as drafting..

Thanks for reading.

MJ was the greatest to ever play simply because he made his teamates better players Yeah I know he has all of the individual awards, but he made a team of nobodys into the greatest Dynasty since Bill Russells Celtics.

 

[jordan23]

MJ only had 2 losing seasons without Pippen, & that's when he was a REALLY OLD man playing as a Wizard......all 13 years he played with the Bulls he made the PLAYOFFS.......Anyways, in 88 Pippen coming to the Bulls didn't help MJ much. As a wise man told you before, MJ was developing as a player. His outside shooting got better, he had to learn the system of the NBA(rookies doesn't know the rules & the system of the NBA), he learned to trust his teammates, and he had to become a better DEFENDER....and like I said, MJ had to develop. 1988 Pippens first year was also the year MJ led the league in steals, was on the all-nba 1st defensive team, & he got the defensive player of the year award! So give MJ his credit! Besides, Pippen wasn't even a starter in the 1988 regular season. That was all MJ's doing!

Pippen was there for 3 years before the Bulls won a title! He didn't change anything! It was all MJ. It's a known fact that the Bulls didn't sart winning until MJ DEVELOPED into a better leader.....They didn't start winning until he started trusting his teammates & making them better!

 

[mattyj]

MJ only had 2 losing seasons without Pippen, & that's when he was a REALLY OLD man playing as a Wizard......all 13 years he played with the Bulls he made the PLAYOFFS.......Anyways, in 88 Pippen coming to the Bulls didn't help MJ much. As a wise man told you before, MJ was developing as a player. His outside shooting got better, he had to learn the system of the NBA(rookies doesn't know the rules & the system of the NBA), he learned to trust his teammates, and he had to become a better DEFENDER....and like I said, MJ had to develop. 1988 Pippens first year was also the year MJ led the league in steals, was on the all-nba 1st defensive team, & he got the defensive player of the year award! So give MJ his credit! Besides, Pippen wasn't even a starter in the 1988 regular season. That was all MJ's doing!

Pippen was there for 3 years before the Bulls won a title! He didn't change anything! It was all MJ. It's a known fact that the Bulls didn't sart winning until MJ DEVELOPED into a better leader.....They didn't start winning until he started trusting his teammates & making them better!

Yep, Jordan could beat the other teams 5 on 1 couldnt he, he was that good

You are a deadset moron...1 player can NOT win by himself, get that thru your head FFS

 

[basketoz74]

MJ only had 2 losing seasons without Pippen, & that's when he was a REALLY OLD man playing as a Wizard......all 13 years he played with the Bulls he made the PLAYOFFS.......Anyways, in 88 Pippen coming to the Bulls didn't help MJ much. As a wise man told you before, MJ was developing as a player. His outside shooting got better, he had to learn the system of the NBA(rookies doesn't know the rules & the system of the NBA), he learned to trust his teammates, and he had to become a better DEFENDER....and like I said, MJ had to develop. 1988 Pippens first year was also the year MJ led the league in steals, was on the all-nba 1st defensive team, & he got the defensive player of the year award! So give MJ his credit! Besides, Pippen wasn't even a starter in the 1988 regular season. That was all MJ's doing!

Pippen was there for 3 years before the Bulls won a title! He didn't change anything! It was all MJ. It's a known fact that the Bulls didn't sart winning until MJ DEVELOPED into a better leader.....They didn't start winning until he started trusting his teammates & making them better!

Well as a Jordan nut hugger please be correct, Jordan had two losing seasons without Pippen in 1984-85 season under Kevin Loughery (38-44) and 1985-86 under Stan Albeck (30-52) in which he was injured for the bulk of the season.


In addition i think alot of the success the 85-86 team was more to do with the play of Orlando Woolridge ( 4 years his senior) and George Gervin (11 years his senior and a stellar career to boot) and considering the careers and ability of those two players i am bemused at how a guy in second or third season would have no trust in them.

But hey your the expert on all things Jordan!!

 

[basketoz74]

His outside shooting got better, he had to learn the system of the NBA(rookies doesn't know the rules & the system of the NBA),

Well it took Jordan six seasons to post a reasonable 3pt%, which in saying this was never one of his strong points, and in 10 of his 15 seasons he had a 100 or less three point attempts, so your point of it improving is baseless when it was clearly a non-factor in the Bulls game-plan or Jordan's style, especially when one considers the likes of Kerr, Paxson and Hodges were on the roster at various times, clearly in a role of being utilised as an outside shooting option.

As for the referance to grasping the rules and the system of the NBA...this i would love to hear you explain further...for in his first season the guy started all 82 games playing 38.3 minutes per game, put up on average 19 shots a game (ranking #5 in the NBA) while averaging 28.2 points per game (ranking #3 in the NBA), while giving up 3.5 fouls per game.

What part of the NBA didn't he have a grasp or fix on...he came to a crapiola team improved them by 10 games or so...became the go to guy and led the franchise from day one...which part of the NBA did "His Airness" apparently need to learn?


See what i see in your posts is your continualy willingess to defend the player regardless of the facts displayed repeatedly, even if your wrong or the posted is wrong....objective discussion is not a slight on the player...it ensures that various opinions are openly exchanged, allowing for views and perceptions to be objectively considered and endorsed if necessary, something regardless of what is shown in response to your posts you seem either unwilling or unable to do.


No one here has ever said Jordan wasnt a great player and arguably the greatest of all, that doesn't mean the mere man was not prone to error or fault either a player, manager or person.

 

[jordan23]

As long as things dont get personal it should be a great debate! One that ill certainly be interested in reading!

You are a deadset moron...1 player can NOT win by himself, get that thru your head FFS

Haha ooks like this thread has gotten personal already.Maybe you should lock this thread Matt . I thought it was the wrong idea in the 1st place.

 

[jordan23]

I really think that Brons supporting cast is better the MJs was). But what i think MJ might have done better than any other player in the modern era was make each of his team mates better than they would have been anywhere else. Now of course Phil had a huge say in that. Maybe it was just the MJ was so good and so competitiveness it just rubbed off and he motivated his teammates through his actions.

Hey Dicky, that's a good one.I aadmire your courage to speak up on issues that are correct.

I know your gonna to get a big coping from fellow member's but honest opinions should always be admired here. Look forward to your insight mate.

Have a good evening