This is why Panini gets bashed so much!

A_Iverson_I

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Ok, originally I was going to post this as a reply to the Panini petition thread, but then decided to make a separate thread as I spent a lot of time researching it. :D

Westriot was saying something that UD and Topps were doing a lot of the same as well, to which I was going to respond with..

The thing is Panini were supposed to come in and be different, to give collectors what they want - heck they even had a thread here asking us what we wanted; and yet, they have failed.... miserably!

They are a little different.... but in a bad way.

Let's take a look at this thread shall we and see how they have done with the most common user feedback:

NOTE: This is not all gonna be Panini bashing below, I will acknowledge stuff they have done as well. :)

http://www.ozcardtrader.com.au/foru...xciting-panini-news-your-feedback-please.html

Number indicates amount of people that requested such..

(25) More On-card Autos / Less stickers - As has been said before, most people recognize that stickers are a necessary evil, however I don't think enough effort is being put in to try and reduce the amount of stickers that are being put into the products. In a recent response from Panini apparently they wait until the players come through Dallas before they get them to sign anything - ever heard of GOING TO THEM!? Additionally, stickers should NEVER be anywhere near a high-end product! I believe the latest NT has stickers..... UD for the most part understood this. Also if you didn't flood the market with so many autos and so many different products this would also reduce the amount of autos you would need to get and hence reducer stickers again.

(19) Less Autos, patches & GU - The majority of this was for LESS GU!!!! Autos and patches were mentioned too, but GU is clearly in need of a reduction! Really.... how many more pointless GU cards do we need? They aren't any special - make them special again. Come up with a nice unique design and nicely work the GU into the card design - we don't need a billion different average looking cards with a small hole for the GU shoved in at the last minute. As mentioned above, less autos will help lessen stickers also.

(19) 90's Design Inserts - This is not rocket science. Give the people what they want. People want GU / Autos to be special again and also less sticker autos; this opens the doors for you to actually spend some time designing nice quality inserts again and room for them in your products as you don't need a billion GU and autos in each product. Will we ever be given nice inserts again!? With the money you save from buying all those autos/GU jerseys surely you can invest it into the technology to develop some nice inserts!!! The only thing I fear is perhaps this process takes a lot more development time and with them wanting to release many many products a year they don't want to spend the time developing a nice looking insert and would rather product the same ol' average looking card and just shove a GU or sticker auto on it. :(

(17) Less Parallels - People requested this overt and over and even said if you're going to make them then at least make them worthy of being a parallel, something different. I haven't bought a lot of Panini stuff or got much of it, but from what I know nothing has changed from what Topps / UD were doing..... we've got the same old billions of parallels that hardly differentiate. Again...... the same issue comes up of them just not wanting to spend the time developing a better looking card.

(13) Redemption's - Varying comments about redemption's, mainly people saying they don't want a bar of them at all. People want the product they purchased, don't want to wait a year+ to get something they should have got when they laid out the cash or end up getting something different than what the redemption promised or even worse being screwed over with a expired redemption!!

(11) Game dated jerseys - Panini are infamous for screwing this up. They have very vague wording on the back of the cards of the origins of the enclosed "GU" peice; people requested more specifics and yet they went backwards.

(10) Range of products $ to $$$ - This is actually something Panini have done. They have cheaper products all the way up to high-end products. Well done in this area; however sometimes as mentioned above the contents in the high-end products doesn't meet the price tag (sticker autos).

(10) Less products - I know this is a business so I can't blame them too much for wanting to release many products, however at least try and put some effort into each product and be "proud" of it rather than release too many products that look the same and don't really have anything special about them.

(10) Larger Patch/GU Windows - This is something that easily could be achieved by reducing the amount of GU out there as then they could afford to use larger pieces for each card.

(5) Different types of Game Used Items - AFAIK Panini hasn't done anything like this yet. Stuff like GU nets, shoes, Draft Day Hats etc... something different!!

(4) Methods to help stop fake patches - Stuff like scanning each patch card that is made so users could look it up in a database on their site or something or measures put into the cards to make it harder to fake.

(4) Bring back interesting card backs - Again, don't own a lot of Panini cards so can't really say much on this one.

(4) Better base sets - I'm not real sure how they have gone in this one either..... anyone that is a base collector care to chime in? Something to get the kids collecting again.

(3) A greater variety of old and retired players - I think they have been making an effort of doing this, so hats off to them there.

(3) Quality Control - UD were pretty shocking at this I must say. So far I can't recall too many bad examples from Panini apart from that upside down (fake) logoman and possibly an upside down sticker.

(3) Less 1/1's - Not real sure how they have done in this area, anyone know!?

(3) Correct checklists - Not sure how they're doing here, but to restate - if you have something on your checklist you damn well better include that card in that set!

(3) Mix up the photos - Too many times we see the same action shot on different cards displayed in a different way!

(3) Continue with innovation - Well I'd say their HRX cards were a good start (love them or hate them) and a couple of people in that thread actually suggested LCD cards, so there ya go! ;)

(3) Manufactured Patches - Less of these!!!!!! Well they certainly haven't listened here and have actually gone all the way to ruining the famed Logoman!! Well done Panini!! :thumbsup:

(3) Prizes like player worn jersey, shoes etc via prize card - Pretty sure they have done some of this stuff, so keep it up! :D

(3) Series 1/2 - This is something I also miss. Perhaps instead of release 50 different products you could have a series 1/2 of a few different products and this may also help avoid some redemption's where some cards that won't be ready for series 1 could go into series 2. :)

Well.... they are all the main points that were brought up and as you can see not many have been implemented. Please improve Panini and maybe people wouldn't bash you so much!
 
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GarnettFan4Life

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:hearts: this thread


Less game used stuff with tiny windows for it on the card couldn't be a bad thing!

There had to be more 1/1 parallels released for sure! And too many parallels in general. It's an epic journey to get (or try to) every card if you are a player collector.

I think on the base set side of it Panini has done well - as someone frustrated with the amount/detailed info on the GU stuff it was then that I started looking at nice base sets - Crown Royale, Gold Standard, Elite Black, Playoff Contenders, even the Donruss Proof base set parallel looks good imo. Agree on the same photo on different sets issue though.

I don't mind manufactured patches where the set looks good and the auto is centered and you can tell or it is written that it is manufactured.

Redemptions are the big problem but always have been it seems, set chasers get to needing a certain card for the set and then either wait a year or more for it or then get told it wasn't produced. Maybe Panini could try the Series 1 and 2 releases and see if this eases the burden or excess redemption cards?

The guaranteed game used stuff is the biggest let down for me, if they could come up with some awesome game dated stuff and make it special again it would go a long way to putting the passion back into people wanting to collect stuff. How many "taking a break from the hobby" threads do we see?

The NBA needs to allow some competition in to spice things up or Panini actually needs to listen to customers. Not sure if either are likely.
 

Mully

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On the count of quality control: What about using stock that doesn't curl? I think spending a bit more on a quality hi-bulk cardboard will stop people eating their cereal out of a base card.

Agreed. Also a better poly coating. The panini on card autos are almost always damaged in some way, NT not so much. It just irks me that you can open a pack and the cards look like a kid has played with them already.
 

taffster74

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Yes, panini did ask what we the collectors wanted. That is why they approached all trading card forums. Just because you listed the top things ozcardtrader.com members wanted to see doesn't necessarily mean that all the other forums in the world world wanted the same thing.

Panini is restricted by the contract they signed. So, if the nba says "we want you to produce x number of products," panini has to comply. You also have to remember that even though panini is the one company, their US product licensing is - essentially - four (donruss, playoff, leaf and pinnacle) and as such, they are (technically) spreading their products over three of those lines (leaf now being a semi-Independent entity focusing on draft and legend sets). So what we have now is the same as the basketball market between 2000/01 and 2004/05.

Yes, the parallels could be drastically reduced. And yes, there has been a dearth of chromium of late, but us collectors can be blamed for that. We wanted chrome and now we have it.... Plenty of it. That being said, donruss/donruss optic and contenders /contenders optic are no different than topps/topps chrome and bowman /bowman chrome.

Yes panini has - for the most part - avoided pandering to the hobby's scourge (the investor) and does even out what is available at each level. But still - and this is just my opinion - there is too much high end. Think about it - immaculate, impeccable, noir, national treasures, opulence, flawless - all sit over the 1k per box/pack range, then you have absolute, certified, court kings (hobby), crown royale, obsidian, gold standard and spectra all over $100 a pack. Do we really need that much high end product?

As for chromium.... Prizm, select, spectra, obsidian, donruss optic, contenders optic. Then of course we have their packaging variants - choice, fast break, fotl, tmall. Now, because - technically- choice, fb, fotl and tmall utilise completely different effects they would classify as separate products.

It all boils down to this, if we ask for something long enough we get it. And when we no longer like it, we have to deal with the consequences. I say we in reference to the worldwide basketball collecting community.
 

taffster74

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Well, you also have to factor in how many other forums at the time were dominated by "investors". Obviously, we're not going to know the exact numbers, but it would explain why there is a lot of high end stuff around. If, say, the majority of people who responded at the time were investors who wanted x and x, then as the saying goes....

Thing is, we don't know the exact numbers so we can only go off what the members here said. And even then, ozcardtrader.com doesn't represent the Australian basketball collecting community as a whole. So it's hard to say "well, the members of this forum who responded to the poll said this, so we should get what we want". Hard and unfair.

As I said earlier, panini America is basically operating three licenses. Okay, four. Panini, donruss, playoff and pinnacle. Yeah, sure, they're all (well, most are) branded as panini, but it's, still those four licenses. It's like with the company mosaic - they own millers, autograph, beme, w-lane, noni-b, katies, Susan, rockmans and several others (this courtesy of mum). Each store is individual but all come under the mosaic banner. Panini is exactly the same way - hence the large number of products (that and the nba contract details). It's like when fleer changed ownership in 2003 - they reintroduced skybox to the market as skybox even though it was still produced by fleer.
 

taffster74

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Addendum, I don't think it's so much what panini does or doesn't do as to why they get bashed. I think it's more people aren't getting what they want so they choose to vent blaming a major company for not meeting the needs of the individual. We have to put things into perspective and that's what I'm doing.

Would I like to see a return to 90s style market where the most expensive product is AU$15 a pack? Personally, yes. But putting things into perspective, I understand that is not likely any time soon. So I just content myself to buying what I can afford when I can afford it. I don't whinge and whine. Ditto with my pc's - I've never been a collector who has to have every single type of card for my player. Would it be nice to have that kind of collection? Yes but in perspective I know it's not possible, so I'm content to just get what I can afford when I can afford it.
 

TAB1980

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Personally i think Panini are just getting lazy these days with all of these parallels

Aside from the Kaboom inserts, there are very few other inserts that feel like much effort has gone into the design of them. It all feels quite mundane.

Virtually with every insert they make, the only rarity about them is when they apply a holo look which is pretty much what they do in every case. And even then, exactly how rare are they?

Out of everything they are currently producing, what do you think collectors are going to look at as being 'iconic' and highly sought after in 10 years time the same way as a PMG, Jambalaya etc?
 
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I think reality is that no one could have predicted the way the market turned. Panini has struggled to keep up with the demand and FOTL/dutch auction is one way they've tried to keep up.

UD/Topps were heading down a very similar path to panini before Panini took over - 05/06 Finest Marcus Camby had 23 different cards (including 1/1s). I do think people look at them through rose coloured glasses now and forgot how good/bad these companies were. Yep competition could be a good thing though.

Redemptions - I get it, many will know my Jimmy Butler story. The reality is that the players are the problem and that is for any different company and any sport. Let's look at Giannis - we all complain if there's no Giannis, reigning MVP etc. reality is that Panini is at his mercy. If they try and force the issue he refuses to sign, if they don't they are stuck with redemptions. Anyone who thinks that the players care about the $10-100,000 from signing cards is hugely mistaken.
 

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Out of everything they are currently producing, what do you think collectors are going to look at as being 'iconic' and highly sought after in 10 years time the same way as a PMG, Jambalaya etc?
Absolutely agree. Seems currently the answer would be silver prizms but I am not sure people will see them as iconic in the future or don't think we have realised just how many of these have been printed (or reprinted)
 
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TAB1980

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Absolutely agree. Seems currently the answer would be silver prizms but I am not sure people will see them as iconic in the future or don't think we have realised just how many of these have been printed (or reprinted)

Silver prizms will always be the preferred parallel i think but they'll never be in the same class as some of those most iconic 90's inserts.
 
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