hawksforever
Magic Fan
I see far too much Kobe hating and not enough Lebron hating from my point of view 
The truth about Kobe Bryant in crunch time
- Thread starter A_Iverson_I
- Start date
You cant base being "Clutch" on statistics. Stats are only a piece of the puzzle when it comes to being clutch. MJ and Kobe are clutch. Not because they have the balls to take the shot or create it during crunch time, but because every player in the league fears them and what they can do with the ball when it comes down to the final moment. Kobe and MJ make other players quiver and scared. Its like sitting there just waiting to get "Skooled" by them and looking bad while they do it. Thats being clutch. Its a mentality you bring to the floor that your confidence bascially helps you with half the battle. Confidence is the biggest part of being clutch.
Baring this in mind, the stats in this article are way off base. When kobe has taken 115 shots and made less than half just proves that Kobe doesnt crumble under pressure and is willing to take that shot. Other players may pass it off or just wait. Lets see where melo stands when he has taken 115 shots. Maybe better or worse. But like one of the poster mentioned in the past 3 yrs, Kobe was 10 for 20 while Lebron was 5 for 20. Umm and Lebron is ranked higher than Kobe? I dont get it. You can always manipulate numbers to win favor for anything you want. Case in point this author used numbers to discredit kobe.
Baring this in mind, the stats in this article are way off base. When kobe has taken 115 shots and made less than half just proves that Kobe doesnt crumble under pressure and is willing to take that shot. Other players may pass it off or just wait. Lets see where melo stands when he has taken 115 shots. Maybe better or worse. But like one of the poster mentioned in the past 3 yrs, Kobe was 10 for 20 while Lebron was 5 for 20. Umm and Lebron is ranked higher than Kobe? I dont get it. You can always manipulate numbers to win favor for anything you want. Case in point this author used numbers to discredit kobe.
sgt_pepper
Amatuer Footballer
i think the problem is that the stats show that kobe doesnt 'skool' his quiverring opponents often enough, no matter how often he's willing to try.
more of a personal POV, but i also think clutch is more to do than just shots made or attempted. its vision. being able to make the right play with the pressure on. sometimes that means passing to an open man when youre triple teamed...MJ's pass off to steve kerr for the 97 championship is a classic example. i remember kobe doing something simliar once aswell in his shaq days...the year after he blew it BIG in the clutch.
A_Iverson_I
OzCardTrader
I see far too much Kobe hating and not enough Lebron hating from my point of view
On the contrary, there can never be enough Kobe hating!
Your argument that Abbott is just using stats is flawed, as Abbott points out several times about Kobe making bad decisions when he has the ball... he almost always has to shoot it, even over double teams just so he can look like the "hero" & get the big clutch title the media loves to portray. There is nothing wrong with passing it off if there is a better shot available, all that means is you're willing to help the team get the best chance at winning the ball game & not all about yourself.
Also..... don't get your point about Lebron..... whilst LBJ is a much better all-round player than Kobe, Lebron really does suck in the clutch.
Abbot uses stats and only stats. Stats are biased. You cant compare a guy with a total attempts of 40 with another guy who attempted 155 times. The numbers are not apples to apples. Stats dont tell the whole picture. You are taking a subjective matter and trying to prove a player good or bad based on numbers. How do numbers justify a subjective stat? Its just like an MVP award. Its voted on. You win the popular vote you end up winning the award. Doesnt necessarily mean it goes to the right player. Anytime you have to vote on something it just means its based on a subjective opinion. Abbot is allowed to have his whether is he wrong or right. Because at the end of the day no opinion is wrong or right.
As for my point on lebron? He is listed on that list made by Abbot higher than Kobe. According to Abbott, Lebron is more clutch during crunch time than Kobe. So how is Abbot correct in your opinion if it negates the fact that you think Lebron is not clutch?
At the end of the day, the only people who know clutch, fear and true talent in the league are the players and coaches themselves. Only they can determine who is actually fearsome, talented and whatever else. They play against each other all season, who would know better other than themselves? But I tend to agree with the coaches pick. Coaches usually know hard working players who can change the outcome of a game at the blink of an eye.
As for my point on lebron? He is listed on that list made by Abbot higher than Kobe. According to Abbott, Lebron is more clutch during crunch time than Kobe. So how is Abbot correct in your opinion if it negates the fact that you think Lebron is not clutch?
At the end of the day, the only people who know clutch, fear and true talent in the league are the players and coaches themselves. Only they can determine who is actually fearsome, talented and whatever else. They play against each other all season, who would know better other than themselves? But I tend to agree with the coaches pick. Coaches usually know hard working players who can change the outcome of a game at the blink of an eye.
A_Iverson_I
OzCardTrader
Did you even read my post and/or Abbott's articles? As I stated he doesn't ONLY use stats. Stats are the primary focus of his article, but he points out as lot of other stuff as well.
My opinion of Kobe not being as clutch as everyone makes him out to be is not just based on Abbott's great articles; I do watch games you know & see exactly what happens. If you only watch highlights then you would only see all the glorified kobe clutch moments. Give someone enough shots & anybody can be a good clutch player with great clutch highlights - just as long as you don't show the misses & stupid decisions.
Did you even read my post and/or Abbott's articles? As I stated he doesn't ONLY use stats. Stats are the primary focus of his article, but he points out as lot of other stuff as well.
My opinion of Kobe not being as clutch as everyone makes him out to be is not just based on Abbott's great articles; I do watch games you know & see exactly what happens. If you only watch highlights then you would only see all the glorified kobe clutch moments. Give someone enough shots & anybody can be a good clutch player with great clutch highlights - just as long as you don't show the misses & stupid decisions.
Why so hostile? Calm down dude... Just a discussion here. I did read your posts. If you check out the article, Abbott states his viewpoint as a kobe hater in my opinion. He then uses statistical example to show flaws in kobes game. The best part of the article is his rankings. He compares guys who have been in the league for 5 yrs with guys who have been in the league for 10+ yrs. He compares guys that attemp 155 shots vs 40. You're absolutely right.. Abbott doesnt just use stats...he uses his opinion to base his argument. Thats even worse.
Next question. If you only concentrate on the missed shots when being clutch and the bad decision when being clutch, then how do you percieve a perfect clutch player? One that never makes mistakes? One that takes only a few shots but never misses? Its all subjective. I love these types of discussions whereby any opinion will win you the argument. Kobe isnt great because he misses too much? Or Kobe isnt great because he doesnt pass the ball enough. Exactly what I think Abbotts article is based on...pretty much hate or envy depending on how you look at it lol!!!
---------- Post added 25-03-2011 at 11:15 PM ----------
if you scroll down the comment list, another article is posted about Abbotts opinion. Its also a good read.
How to be statistically biased: Henry Abbott on Kobe Bryant - Silver Screen and Roll
A_Iverson_I
OzCardTrader
Sorry if I appeared to be hostile, but I stated Abbott's whole articles weren't just based on stats & then you come back claiming they were.
So you're not allowed to compare guys from the same era with the same amount of shots? Think that field would be pretty slim.
Look.... I never said Kobe isn't clutch..... just that he is not as clutch as people & the media make him out to be. He misses a LOT of shots, but also makes some nice clutch shots too.... Abbott has pointed out that the Lakers offense gets a whole lot worse in the closing moments with Kobe IN the game versus with Kobe OUT; that is because Kobe is too concerned with being the hero & only passing it as the VERY last option. Phil Jackson has even made comments hinting at this kind of stuff himself.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to take the last shot & win the game for your team..... but when it becomes more about you then the team then you have problems.
So you're not allowed to compare guys from the same era with the same amount of shots? Think that field would be pretty slim.
Look.... I never said Kobe isn't clutch..... just that he is not as clutch as people & the media make him out to be. He misses a LOT of shots, but also makes some nice clutch shots too.... Abbott has pointed out that the Lakers offense gets a whole lot worse in the closing moments with Kobe IN the game versus with Kobe OUT; that is because Kobe is too concerned with being the hero & only passing it as the VERY last option. Phil Jackson has even made comments hinting at this kind of stuff himself.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to take the last shot & win the game for your team..... but when it becomes more about you then the team then you have problems.
Sorry if I appeared to be hostile, but I stated Abbott's whole articles weren't just based on stats & then you come back claiming they were.
So you're not allowed to compare guys from the same era with the same amount of shots? Think that field would be pretty slim.
Look.... I never said Kobe isn't clutch..... just that he is not as clutch as people & the media make him out to be. He misses a LOT of shots, but also makes some nice clutch shots too.... Abbott has pointed out that the Lakers offense gets a whole lot worse in the closing moments with Kobe IN the game versus with Kobe OUT; that is because Kobe is too concerned with being the hero & only passing it as the VERY last option. Phil Jackson has even made comments hinting at this kind of stuff himself.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to take the last shot & win the game for your team..... but when it becomes more about you then the team then you have problems.
I wish abbott had taken a look at relative career numbers rather than choosing certain years. He did compare Kobe to alot of newer guys. Why not just bring in the 80s players while your at it? Also he is comparing guys from different positions. As much as I love Kobe, I think the only player in this past decade that comes even close to recogintion for greatest of all time is TD. Duncan made that list as well. In my opinion the article takes too many stances to sway away from kobe. From my perspective it was more of a kobe hating rant then it was about being clutch!!
Also Abbott should have broken out the regular season vs Playoffs. Different pressure, different mentality. Playoffs vs Regular season game are 2 different worlds!
daveduffield
OzCardTrader
If you want to be special, it somehow has to show up in your numbers.
Here are the 2011 statistics for Kobe, when a game finished with at most a 6 point difference or was within 5 when the final 5 minutes of a game began (total of 23 5-minute-periods in 19 games (includes 4 ot-periods) with Kobe playing in every minute = 115 minutes of clutch play):
5:00 minutes left - 2:01 minutes left: 24 of 50 FGs (48%), 4 Assists, 5 Turnovers
above average FG%, below average Asst-To-Ratio
2:00 minutes left - 0:46 minutes left: 8 of 23 FGs (35%), 9 Assists, 2 Turnovers
below average FG%, above average Asst-To-Ratio
0:45 minutes left - 0:00 minutes left: 7 of 24 FGs (29%), 0 Assists, 2 Turnovers
way below average, when it counted the most
Summary: Gradual decline in FG% towards the final minutes of games. Plays slightly above average when clutch time begins. Overall, not a very good clutch player in 2011, average at best.
Here are the 2011 statistics for Kobe, when a game finished with at most a 6 point difference or was within 5 when the final 5 minutes of a game began (total of 23 5-minute-periods in 19 games (includes 4 ot-periods) with Kobe playing in every minute = 115 minutes of clutch play):
5:00 minutes left - 2:01 minutes left: 24 of 50 FGs (48%), 4 Assists, 5 Turnovers
above average FG%, below average Asst-To-Ratio
2:00 minutes left - 0:46 minutes left: 8 of 23 FGs (35%), 9 Assists, 2 Turnovers
below average FG%, above average Asst-To-Ratio
0:45 minutes left - 0:00 minutes left: 7 of 24 FGs (29%), 0 Assists, 2 Turnovers
way below average, when it counted the most
Summary: Gradual decline in FG% towards the final minutes of games. Plays slightly above average when clutch time begins. Overall, not a very good clutch player in 2011, average at best.
Again, another kobe hater specifically picking certain years to prove a point.
Id like to see how clutch lebron is in the playoffs especially last year and the year he got killed 4 straight in the playoffs. Lets see how his numbers look for those specific occasions. Id also like to see MJs cluthness factor based on what you just mentioned above when he played for the Wiz?? I mean since we are cherry picking bad years and more mature years out of prime, lets keep rolling the same ball shall we?
daveduffield
OzCardTrader
Rolling the same ball ? From somebody who demands comparing MJs statistics when playing for the Wiz (at age 38 - 40) with Kobe aged 32 ? Ridiculous comparison. The career of 98% of all NBA-players who ever played, was over at age 38. Most likely, Kobes will be too.
Will not even start any prolonged discussion here, but now we know, why all your defense seems to be based on calling others haters, when they come in and state facts.
29% shooting and 0 Assists in the final 45 seconds of 23 consecutive periods to date is awful, to say the least. This has absolutely nothing to do with hating Kobe or not. That would be awful for any player, who is perceived to do great things for your team in the clutch.
For those who are trulely interested, there is more information available, like this research from 82games:
NBA Player Clutch Statistics from 82games.com
clutch free throw shooting:
NBA Random Stat: Clutch Free Throw Shooting from 82games.com
Kobe is to be found in there, just not among the best. There is perception and then there is reality. Kobe can proof the number crunchers wrong any day, if he is that great. Lets see what he will be up to in the next 19 games.
Will not even start any prolonged discussion here, but now we know, why all your defense seems to be based on calling others haters, when they come in and state facts.
29% shooting and 0 Assists in the final 45 seconds of 23 consecutive periods to date is awful, to say the least. This has absolutely nothing to do with hating Kobe or not. That would be awful for any player, who is perceived to do great things for your team in the clutch.
For those who are trulely interested, there is more information available, like this research from 82games:
NBA Player Clutch Statistics from 82games.com
clutch free throw shooting:
NBA Random Stat: Clutch Free Throw Shooting from 82games.com
Kobe is to be found in there, just not among the best. There is perception and then there is reality. Kobe can proof the number crunchers wrong any day, if he is that great. Lets see what he will be up to in the next 19 games.
Kobe has nothing left to prove. He has been a proven winner his whole career. Just ask any coach and player that has played against him. I dont know why I bother arguing with arm chair quarterbacks that have never played the game. If anyone out there knows how good and demeaning kobe is during game time is those who play against him. Its ironic that only those that dont play the game actually put him down and dont call him clutch. A story writer vs an NBA coach.... I guess in your world the story writer knows more and experienced kobe on the floor playing ball? Hence why you choose to believe numbers.
Again, stop comparing kobes worst stats vs the league. Its just a moot point. Just like me asking you to compare Mjs final years. Why did you pick out 2011 stats? Why not anything between 2003 and 2005?
perfect article for you to read..
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/vince_thomas/01/05/kobe.clutch/index.html
Kobe wins playoff MVP and haters deny him the award saying someone else deserves it.
Kobe goes out and scores the lights out and hes a ball hog
Kobe doesnt shoot the lights out and he sucks
According to some, kobe can never do anything right. And if he does, there will be another excuse waiting as to why someone else is better. Its pretty much a shame that people cannot just enjoy his great talent. No great player in the history of any sport was more disliked due to envy than kobe has been. I personally hate lebron, but youll never see me stoop to levels calling him bad or he sucks all because of my opinion. Yet kobe haters will do whatever it takes to discredit his mvps, and rings that he has won.
I hope kobe gets number 6 if not more. I hope the celebrate the day that he becomes the greatest of all time in nba history.
Again, stop comparing kobes worst stats vs the league. Its just a moot point. Just like me asking you to compare Mjs final years. Why did you pick out 2011 stats? Why not anything between 2003 and 2005?
perfect article for you to read..
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/vince_thomas/01/05/kobe.clutch/index.html
Kobe wins playoff MVP and haters deny him the award saying someone else deserves it.
Kobe goes out and scores the lights out and hes a ball hog
Kobe doesnt shoot the lights out and he sucks
According to some, kobe can never do anything right. And if he does, there will be another excuse waiting as to why someone else is better. Its pretty much a shame that people cannot just enjoy his great talent. No great player in the history of any sport was more disliked due to envy than kobe has been. I personally hate lebron, but youll never see me stoop to levels calling him bad or he sucks all because of my opinion. Yet kobe haters will do whatever it takes to discredit his mvps, and rings that he has won.
I hope kobe gets number 6 if not more. I hope the celebrate the day that he becomes the greatest of all time in nba history.
daveduffield
OzCardTrader
If you want data from 2003-04 included.... can be found. Here is another article starting with data samples in 2003-04 running through 2008-09. Kobe was aged 25 - 31 during those years, which are the most productive for 95% of all NBA-players (Steve Nash does not count here ;-) )
NBA Game Winning Shots -- leading players
Among those 33 NBA-players who took at least 20 game winning shot attempts, Kobe ranks 29th by FGPCT. I would not call that great. And he has 1 Assist to show for 5 Turnovers, which is nearly the worst among all players listed. He did hit 80% of his free throws though, topping the 75% NBA-average, but going below his career average.
Enough from me. For a final word, here is a copy and paste from that article:
"..and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!
42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups
Now we're not Kobe haters by any means and I will readily give him his due as one of the best NBA players (note however, I didn't say the best) but he certainly has an overblown reputation when it comes to the clutch shot: people remember the ones he hits, but not the ones he misses, and heck you think a 56 FGA to 1 assist ratio might be part of the problem?.... "
Ups, one last word from me, as i just see that. 1 assist was part of the problem from 03-04 to 08-09 ? In 2011 Kobe stands at 0 Assists in 23 consecutive 45-second periods... as Charles Barkley once said: "Once is an Accident, twice is a Coincidence, and three times is a trend". He is probably right here ;-)
NBA Game Winning Shots -- leading players
Among those 33 NBA-players who took at least 20 game winning shot attempts, Kobe ranks 29th by FGPCT. I would not call that great. And he has 1 Assist to show for 5 Turnovers, which is nearly the worst among all players listed. He did hit 80% of his free throws though, topping the 75% NBA-average, but going below his career average.
Enough from me. For a final word, here is a copy and paste from that article:
"..and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!
42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups
Now we're not Kobe haters by any means and I will readily give him his due as one of the best NBA players (note however, I didn't say the best) but he certainly has an overblown reputation when it comes to the clutch shot: people remember the ones he hits, but not the ones he misses, and heck you think a 56 FGA to 1 assist ratio might be part of the problem?.... "
Ups, one last word from me, as i just see that. 1 assist was part of the problem from 03-04 to 08-09 ? In 2011 Kobe stands at 0 Assists in 23 consecutive 45-second periods... as Charles Barkley once said: "Once is an Accident, twice is a Coincidence, and three times is a trend". He is probably right here ;-)
heres my next question.. do you base everything just on numbers then? that there is no subjective matter when it comes to any catagory? I mean kobes game is being distinguished based on stats and numbers here. Im sure I can dig up enough numbers that can discredit any player including MJ here.
It just seems that when it comes to kobe, he is only judged by his numbers. Why does assists keep coming into the equation here? lets leave assists to those PGs who should be getting them. Why should a pure scorer have to be dealt that he is not good at passing the ball? Thats like asking why mutumbo couldnt score 30+ ppg. Because his job on the court wasnt to score but to be more of a defensive threat?
I think the other piece missing from this clutch factor is the players defense. Being clutch in the final minutes also means playing good D. Im sure if you look at the comparables on shots made vs defensive efforts to stop scoring, kobe ranks right up there as his defense is bar none one best out there.
It just seems that when it comes to kobe, he is only judged by his numbers. Why does assists keep coming into the equation here? lets leave assists to those PGs who should be getting them. Why should a pure scorer have to be dealt that he is not good at passing the ball? Thats like asking why mutumbo couldnt score 30+ ppg. Because his job on the court wasnt to score but to be more of a defensive threat?
I think the other piece missing from this clutch factor is the players defense. Being clutch in the final minutes also means playing good D. Im sure if you look at the comparables on shots made vs defensive efforts to stop scoring, kobe ranks right up there as his defense is bar none one best out there.
A_Iverson_I
OzCardTrader
Why do you keep bringing Lebron into this? Lebron is not heralded as a big clutch time player like Kobe is, so trying to disparage Lebron in the clutch is moot.
LMFAO...... Good luck with that!
Jordan likely would of gotten more than 6 rings if he didn't go off on his baseball MO. Even if Kobe does get 6 or 7 rings, I think Jordan has him
That's a whole other argument..... Kobe gets his reputation as a big time clutch shot maker - that's what this thread & Abbott's articles are disputing.
aussiemjfreak
Taj Gibson & Set Collector!
Kobe hate this, Kobe hate that... What about your obvious over the top love for Kobe blinding you and discrediting the facts you see in front of you? Kobe IS clutch... he's just not as clutch as the LOVERS would like to think, for that matter anyone that loves Kobe can not take any criticism that is made of him at all... It's all about the Love. Stop going on about haters until you can be as inpartial as you claim or at least try to be.......
Matty4292
Denver Nuggets Fan
What about free throws?
araiee
Lebron, Kobe and Westbrook!!!
im a huge kobe fan and am happy to admit that he has his flaws!!! so what...you name one player in the game that has flawless stats and personal lives!!!!
be pretty hard, you can argue statistics all day long, every player will come up short in some statistical information, statistics dont always mean everything, ill just reiterate the point 5 rings and possibly more have to mean somthing and then the kobe haters will say "but he had help" yeah he did, becasue 1 star player never wins multiple championships, love kobe, hate kobe, he will always be mentioned amongst the best, and thats just the way it is folks....
be pretty hard, you can argue statistics all day long, every player will come up short in some statistical information, statistics dont always mean everything, ill just reiterate the point 5 rings and possibly more have to mean somthing and then the kobe haters will say "but he had help" yeah he did, becasue 1 star player never wins multiple championships, love kobe, hate kobe, he will always be mentioned amongst the best, and thats just the way it is folks....
my obvious over the top love for kobe comes from admiration of his dedication to basketball. His dedication to being the best and doing what it takes. He isnt my favorite player (Magic Johnson is). Like aralee stated, every player has his flaws...but no one gets more attention and talk as kobe gets.
When there are a few that like to point out kobes flaws, there are 10 times more people waiting in line to discredit him. Whether you like him or not, he is the talk for the town when it comes to basketball during his era. I spend just as much time defending him as you might spend trying to discredit him. The only difference is that I spend more time debating what I love and not what I want to hate.
To A_Iverson, the reason I bought Lebron into the conversation is because he ranks higher than Kobe does in Abbotts stats rankings when it comes to being clutch. So if you detemine him to not be a heralded clutch performer, the article you support advocates hime being just that. Thats hypocrisy at its best.
I guess we agree to disagree when it comes to kobes greatness in not just as a basketball player but also is a clutch player. Tho we can atleast agree that he recieves more attention than any other player in basketball ... no>?
