Player of the decade?
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Jim how can you ask anyone to explain why? You plead that Kidd and T Mac should be up there in the conversation and then rattle off everything that Kobe's done that they haven't.
Allow me to hide it for those who can't handle it...
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It seems the 'Redeemed Team' has slipped your mind in that list of average achievements. How much have the young guys taken away from that? I think alot of that has to do with these guys seeing his work ethic first hand. Not all of it but it has played a role in the elevation in their game. It's come from the horses mouth. What did they call LeBron before that? LeBronze... something like that? These kids have stated first hand how much playing alongside him effected their game.
Not the best player on the three-peat team! That's being a little harsh don't you think? That is totally downplaying the kids talent and game (at the time) with such a naiive statement. I agree he wasn't the best player but In the span of about 6 seasons where arguably the best player in the league was perhaps the most dominant big man ever, who do you put on that team that's better than Shaq? Don't say Mike, he was gone. Don't say Duncan, he get's nada while that LA team was peaking except one season where they choked in the conference semis and should have gone 4 straight. Still, credit to Duncan and co. Between 2000 and 2002 he was already running rings around anyone trying to gaurd him, the league was already looking for 'Kobe stoppers'. Forgive me for being blunt but you were like what? 9 or 10 at the time?
Everyone says Kobe without Shaq, blah blah blah, but how many titles do the Lakers win with Shaq and no Kobe? Could have happened, sure just like the Lakers could have won last season and are in a position to do so this season. No Shaq. How many rings do either of them get without the Lakers? None. And if you point out Shaqs glorious season with Miami then you missed my point. They both played important roles on that team.
Besides, Kobe led the Lakers to the playoffs in back to back seasons with no one and no help by putting up 40 a night. He selfishly matched T-Mac's success and acolades right there in 2 seasons and the fact that he had the championships before that, and has continued to get better (not in the same sense as LeBron getting better - I'm talking playing smarter) and is competing for another championship in back to back seasons, after bringing home the gold is why he get's my vote. If you need more of a reason take a closer look at his resume and don't just dismiss it.
Last point I'll make is Shaq started earlier, Kobe started later. In this decade, kobe's at a point where he continues to amaze you, continues to elevate his game and continues to break records, continues to adapt his game to his surroundings and team in order to win. There's players in that list, cough*Iverson*cough, that couldn't change their game to suit a team if their life depended on it and you previously named another one of them.
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A little too much Kobe love for my liking but hey, you asked for it. Would be interested to hear other voters opinions.
jimboiitmac
miami pride
Jim how can you ask anyone to explain why? You plead that Kidd and T Mac should be up there in the conversation and then rattle off everything that Kobe's done that they haven't.
Allow me to hide it for those who can't handle it...
[hide]
It seems the 'Redeemed Team' has slipped your mind in that list of average achievements. How much have the young guys taken away from that? I think alot of that has to do with these guys seeing his work ethic first hand. Not all of it but it has played a role in the elevation in their game. It's come from the horses mouth. What did they call LeBron before that? LeBronze... something like that? These kids have stated first hand how much playing alongside him effected their game.
Not the best player on the three-peat team! That's being a little harsh don't you think? That is totally downplaying the kids talent and game (at the time) with such a naiive statement. I agree he wasn't the best player but In the span of about 6 seasons where arguably the best player in the league was perhaps the most dominant big man ever, who do you put on that team that's better than Shaq? Don't say Mike, he was gone. Don't say Duncan, he get's nada while that LA team was peaking except one season where they choked in the conference semis and should have gone 4 straight. Still, credit to Duncan and co. Between 2000 and 2002 he was already running rings around anyone trying to gaurd him, the league was already looking for 'Kobe stoppers'. Forgive me for being blunt but you were like what? 9 or 10 at the time?
Everyone says Kobe without Shaq, blah blah blah, but how many titles do the Lakers win with Shaq and no Kobe? Could have happened, sure just like the Lakers could have won last season and are in a position to do so this season. No Shaq. How many rings do either of them get without the Lakers? None. And if you point out Shaqs glorious season with Miami then you missed my point. They both played important roles on that team.
Besides, Kobe led the Lakers to the playoffs in back to back seasons with no one and no help by putting up 40 a night. He selfishly matched T-Mac's success and acolades right there in 2 seasons and the fact that he had the championships before that, and has continued to get better (not in the same sense as LeBron getting better - I'm talking playing smarter) and is competing for another championship in back to back seasons, after bringing home the gold is why he get's my vote. If you need more of a reason take a closer look at his resume and don't just dismiss it.
Last point I'll make is Shaq started earlier, Kobe started later. In this decade, kobe's at a point where he continues to amaze you, continues to elevate his game and continues to break records, continues to adapt his game to his surroundings and team in order to win. There's players in that list, cough*Iverson*cough, that couldn't change their game to suit a team if their life depended on it and you previously named another one of them.
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A little too much Kobe love for my liking but hey, you asked for it. Would be interested to hear other voters opinions.
I'm not sure what your getting at, at all mate?
If you actually took the time to read my post properly, you'd see that I didn't say Jason Kidd and Tracy Mcgrady should be contending for player of the decade, but more that they deserve to make a short-list of 10, as the poll in this thread has. And what's more, I didn't plead, I merely said they deserve to be in the top 10, not the best, the top 10 (which they do).
I said Kidd is probably the point guard of this decade while behind Kobe and Lebron, Mcgrady is the best wing player. I didn't say they should be "up there in the conversation", not once did I insinuate they should be the best, but merely they should be in the top 10 - so please don't put words in my mouth.
You can point out whatever you want about Kobe's offense, his game, how he continues to "elevate his game and break records" - but even that statement isn't true as Lebron is breaking more records than Kobe is right now.
Kobe is definately up there, but to be player of the decade, you have to do a bit more than Kobe did.
Let's see what he did?
I'm not even going to mention scoring titles, a season of 35.4 ppg, or the 81 points because those are all regular season accolades which really don't sum up the whole reason teams in the NBA compete. That reason is obviously Championships.
The only individual accolade which I would put up there to be comparable to winning a ring is winning a Regular Season MVP, which still isn't as high but is the next best thing.
So let's see, Kobe has 3 championships, and 1 Regular Season MVP.
Tim Duncan has 4 championships, 3 Finals MVP's and 2 Regular Season MVP's
Shaquille O'neal has 4 championships, 3 Finals MVP's and 1 Regular Season MVP
The bottom line is Kobe wasn't the best player on any team that won a championship in the last decade.
Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan both were, 3 out of 4 times.
The Championship is the ultimate goal and should be used as the leverage for difference when you are comparing elite players. If you think anything else, ie stats, overall skills, offensive performances, regular season performances, records etc - your smoking something!
ps. I read your big Kobe argument and you make some very valid points. Maybe I do overlook the Olympic performance, but if your being honest, how many times will you bring up an Olympic achievement to back up a player your arguing for - most of the time you don't even remember the Olympics. Anyway your argument talks about these things:
Paragraph 1 - Olympics (okay, fair call but that doesn't outweigh being the best player on championship teams)
Paragraph 2 - What does my age have to do with the blunt fact that Kobe was the 2nd option on the Lakers teams that achieved a 3-Peat
Paragraph 3 - Yes Shaq wouldn't have won without Kobe but the point is Shaq was better than Kobe when they played on those teams.
Paragraph 4 - Okay Kobe led the Lakers to back to back playoffs, that sounds like such a great achievement? Not.
Paragraph 5 - A lot of great things praising Kobe but no facts or stats, nothing that proves anything in concrete.
All in all I don't really have anything to say, others may disagree with me and obviously you do but the facts are there in black and white.
The best player of the decade had to be at least ONCE the best player on the team that won the championship. For the decade 1999-2009 (so far) Kobe hasn't done that. So until the Lakers beat the Magic and he gets Finals MVP, both Tim Duncan and Shaq are still ahead of him for this decade in my books.
nbacardDOTnet
#1 Robert Horry Collector
Where is T-MAC and Robert Horry ? =)
Don't worry Jim, I don't know why I bothered. I just voted kobe, I'll leave it at that. To each his own I guess.
But I'll say this, I'm not knocking you about your age so no need to get defensive about that.
---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------
Ok......
But I'll say this, I'm not knocking you about your age so no need to get defensive about that.
---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------
The Championship is the ultimate goal and should be used as the leverage for difference when you are comparing elite players. If you think anything else, ie stats, overall skills, offensive performances, regular season performances, records etc - your smoking something!
Ok......
jimboiitmac
miami pride
Don't worry Jim, I don't know why I bothered. I just voted kobe, I'll leave it at that. To each his own I guess.
But I'll say this, I'm not knocking you about your age so no need to get defensive about that.
---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------
Ok......
Fair enough mate this could go round and round in circles.
Like you said, each to their own.
WoobieZarz
OzCardTrader
Hey Jim, if you're using Championship Rings as leverage, would that mean Robert Horry is better than any of them????
He's won 7 Championships, 5 in this last decade.
He's acheived next to no regular season achievements, but has won the most rings.
He's won 7 Championships, 5 in this last decade.
He's acheived next to no regular season achievements, but has won the most rings.
jimboiitmac
miami pride
I didn't say rings were the leverage mate - Read my post.
I said when DIFFERENTIATING between ELITE PLAYERS in my opinion you really have to look at their success.
For example, Tim Duncan and KG are both phenomenal players, but TD gets my nod because he is a winner.
For that reason I just don't see how Kobe can be the best when he wasn't the best player on any team that won a championship in the last decade.
I'd go with Duncan for sure....he's been the best power forward in history.
He dominated along with Shaq the first 5 or 6 yrs of the decade and has really only started to fade a tad in the last year...
He dominated along with Shaq the first 5 or 6 yrs of the decade and has really only started to fade a tad in the last year...
nzwarriors#1
what ya gonna do!!!!!
Nathan Jawai
I think he would just get pipped by Michael Olawakandi.....then Kwame Brown
WoobieZarz
OzCardTrader
Fair enough, I understand now.
TD sh!ts all over KG IMO too!
I guess people could argue this point all they want huh, I mean would either of them have won without each other?
Kobe & Shaq, TD & Manu, Shaq & Wade, heck would the Mailman have had all his (non-championship) success without Stockton?
jimboiitmac
miami pride
Fair enough, I understand now.
TD sh!ts all over KG IMO too!
I guess people could argue this point all they want huh, I mean would either of them have won without each other?
Kobe & Shaq, TD & Manu, Shaq & Wade, heck would the Mailman have had all his (non-championship) success without Stockton?
Yeah that's true. I did just read an article that kind of put into perspective for me, and reminded me, that Kobe and Shaq were like two of the best 5 players in the NBA during their runs, so Kobe not winning the Finals MVP for any of those rings doesn't mean he was a scrub (obviously).
But yeah, he's definately up there for me, but I probably go with Tim Duncan or Shaq, I'm surprised they don't get a few more votes.
Allen Iverson? I mean - really!?! WTF!
WoobieZarz
OzCardTrader
LOL @ AI...
Classic.
I still think it's bizarre that LBJ & Wade are on this list.
Classic.
I still think it's bizarre that LBJ & Wade are on this list.
jimboiitmac
miami pride
Agreed - but it's probably because they are phenomenon's.
I mean between them, not even mentioning the stuff they've done at the Olympics they have an MVP Award, multiple All-NBA berths, a couple All-Defensive berths, not to mention a championship and Finals MVP and a combined what, like 8-10 All-Star appearances in like 5 seasons each?!
They are freaks. Some players in the poll were nowhere near to doing those types of things in their first 5 seasons or so.
But yes, realistically it should really be out of:
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Steve Nash (MAYBE!)
Iverson and Dirk are questionable, both of them have really only had ONE incredible season (when both won MVP haha) and neither have done much in the post-season.
I still think Kidd would get in there though, I mean he was really the point guard of the early 2000's until Steve Nash came in and won his repeat MVP's. Kidd went to the Finals what 3 times in a row? or twice but whatever. You get the picture.
